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Anonymous
# Posted: 26 Jul 2015 03:39
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Henrik


I have never posted here before and am not sure it what I am doing will work correctly.

My situation is similar to ones I am reading about here. I have been using only a landline wired telephone and internet wired via dial-up. However, I am less and less able to do things or get sites I want via the dial-up computer system, and can not even go to a current operating system upgrade for my computer because apparently I have the top level that still can use dial-up--but it is now unsupported by many applications so will no longer run flash and various things I would like to be able to use so as for example to be able to access educational sites for my child and so on.

Because we are in a rural area the only other option is to get satellite internet. I would like to do this if I can do it safely. The two satellite internet companies available in our area of the USA are Exede 12 (using ViaSat 1 geostationary satellite) or HughesNet (using I am not sure what). Of the 2 I am favoring Exede based on likelihood that it will work better just in terms of delivering internet service. What I have learned that I will relay below is mainly for the Exede, but probably also applies to the HughesNet.

The system can be hardwired only except for where it uploads and downloads at the customer end satellite dish--that is wired cable from dish to modem near where it will be used, and then an ethernet cable from the modem to the computer. Also, the electric powering the system can be plugged into a power strip and turned off (or unplugged) whenever we do not want to use the internet.

I may be wrong but I think that means there would not be any upload going on at any time the system is unplugged. I do not know if there would still be anything coming into the parabolic dish even when the electric to it is off.

Next issue is where the dish at our house (VSAT, I believe it may be called) can be mounted. Distance from house is apparently limited to 120ft. This would allow on the house itself -- which I expect the company would favor, but seems like it is likely to be more dangerous as to EMF ???? The location on house would be on roof outside of my bedroom and I have no way to know in advance what direction the back of the dish would point, though the open receiving end would be pointing away generally toward the south. Another option would be the roof of a separate garage--probably better from and EMF pov but harder from an installation pov, with the cable wires needing to stretch across driveway and more difficulties with that likely. Final possible option might be to have it mounted on a pole, if there is anywhere within 120 feet that gets southern sky line of sight (which with lots of trees there may not be), and also an issue of its own danger of being lower down for ??? children, pets, etc. that might get involved with where the beams concentrate in the parabola.


And then, finally, there is the last option which is to stick with dial-up which does not allow us to do much, but does not have the extra EMF issues of satellite.

What do you all think?

Anonymous
# Posted: 26 Jul 2015 04:24
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PS I saw in a prior similar post that a link to the internet satellite company(ies) would be helpful.

Here is one: http://www.exede.com/satellite-installation/

and the other: www.hughesnet.com


thanks!

horsevad
Member
# Posted: 26 Jul 2015 14:08
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Parabolic antennas have a very high gain factor. 30-40 dB is quite normal - and even more gain can be achieved by enlarging the parabolic structure and encasing the transceiver in a suitable waveguide located in the focal point of the parabolic structure.

Gain is a technical way of describing how efficient an antenna is in focusing the electromagnetic signal in a specific direction.

A parabolic antenna will therefore focus almost all of the electromagnetic signal in the direction the parabolic antenna is pointed.

A few meters behind the parabolic antenna you should be back to background levels - at least for a normal consumer-unit.

If you can locate a suitable installation location, where you are able to effectively minimise any human presence in front of the parabolic antenna there should not be any ill health effects of the installation.

If you are concerned about electrical and magnetic ELF from the modem you could choose to install the parabolic antenna and the modem as far away from the house as possible.

The transceiver (the little cylinder-shaped thingy in the focal point of the parabolic antenna) is connected to a modem by a coax-cable. As the signal in the coax is analog, it is usually preferred that this length of cable is as short as possible, in order to ensure a good signal/noise-ratio when the signal arrives at the A/D-converter in the modem.

It is the length of this coax cable which is limited to 120 feet.

However, when the signal leaves the modem it is converted to a digital signal which is transmitted via UTP (unshielded twisted pair) cable. This cable can (under CAT 5e) specifications be as long as 100 meters (about 300 feet), but if you are careful in the installation even longer cables can be used without measurable signal degradation.

If you choose this installation the parabolic antenna and the modem can be installed a hundred meters away from your house. You only need to install a electrical power supply cable to the installation post, and find a suitable route for the CAT5e UTP data cable back to the house.

To minimise possible HF noise on the electrical supply cable from the modem you could mount ferrite beads on both ends of the electrical supply cable. Ideally - to minimise capacitive / inductive crosstalk - the electrical cable and the UTP cable should be installed with a spacing of at least some centimeters.

//Kim Horsevad

Anonymous
# Posted: 26 Jul 2015 19:42
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A parabolic antenna will therefore focus almost all of the electromagnetic signal in the direction the parabolic antenna is pointed.

Thank you for your reply!

In the direction the antenna is pointed, we should be okay with regard to either of the places that seem possible to put it that no humans would be right in front.


A few meters behind the parabolic antenna you should be back to background levels - at least for a normal consumer-unit.




The "few meters behind" seems to me to be the bigger issue.

If the dish were to be installed on our house (which may or may not be possible in terms of foliage possibly blocking line of sight to southern sky), it would be somewhere very close to my bedroom, which is only barely more than 2 meters high at ceiling, plus maybe another meter for attic roof space, and then the room itself is small so that the bed probably would be within 3 meters, and certainly within 4 meters, of the back end of the dish.

If people are feeling ill effects from send and receive type satellite when at the back of them--I do not quite understand that, but it seemed to be what some people on page 1 of this thread reported, for example reporting that installations on an apartment roof above a bedroom caused feeling ill, insomnia etc.-- would this be a problem?

Does turning off the power to the modem whenever someone would be trying to rest in the bedroom near the dish mean the EMFs (or whatever causes the illness effects) stop flowing out the back of the dish or whatever is the issue with the area behind the dish?

What is the problem that happens behind the dish that seems to affect some people?

The transceiver (the little cylinder-shaped thingy in the focal point of the parabolic antenna) is connected to a modem by a coax-cable. As the signal in the coax is analog, it is usually preferred that this length of cable is as short as possible, in order to ensure a good signal/noise-ratio when the signal arrives at the A/D-converter in the modem.

It is the length of this coax cable which is limited to 120 feet.

However, when the signal leaves the modem it is converted to a digital signal which is transmitted via UTP (unshielded twisted pair) cable. This cable can (under CAT 5e) specifications be as long as 100 meters (about 300 feet), but if you are careful in the installation even longer cables can be used without measurable signal degradation.


I read your message about 6 times trying to understand it all! I am not a particularly tech savvy person, so I am not sure I do entirely even now. I had to look up CAT5e cable not having heard of it before.

I think we will be subject to what the installer of whatever company I go with can do (is willing to do), so I don't think that I will be able to do special unusual things like getting power supplies installed at the installation post, etc.

And I think that I am more concerned about the dish than the modem, because when I was at a local Excede dealer, I brought an EMF (simple Osun set to USA, not Europe standards) meter and the EMF at the modem did not seem high. Also performance with an ethernet cable direct from computer into the modem was much better than when there were 2 ethernet cables and one router between modem and computer.

So, back to dish installation issues and considerations:

One difference in the 2 companies under consideration is that Exede limits the distance from dish to point of use to 120 feet, but HughesNet allows 150 feet. 150 feet might allow the cable to go out to where there is an old pole for holding a dish for satellite TV from before I lived here. That seems to have a more clear line of sight to the southern sky, and would not have the issue of being above the bedroom. When I tried to measure as best I could it seems to be beyond the 120 foot max. for Exede. I do not know if the type of cable used for the old TV dish would even be the same as what is needed for an internet dish, or if it would be any good after all these years, but it seems like it might be advantageous in terms of distance from living space, already being trenched in place, and having possibly the best southern sky line of sight. If it were usable at all, it would mean, probably, going with HughesNet rather than Exede.

horsevad
Member
# Posted: 26 Jul 2015 22:51
Reply 


If people are feeling ill effects from send and receive type satellite when at the back of them--I do not quite understand that, but it seemed to be what some people on page 1 of this thread reported, for example reporting that installations on an apartment roof above a bedroom caused feeling ill, insomnia etc.-- would this be a problem?

The reported ill effects could be due to electromagnetic noise from the transceiver equipment, not the parabolic antenna itself. Only if the parabolic antenna is severely maladjusted / wrongly specified for the specific frequency / installed in a unsuitable location with a large amount of reflections should the signal from the antenna be causing problems for people behind the antenna.

For industrial installations - with much larger transmitting power than a consumer-unit - reflection from structural details in the nearby buildings become a larger problem.

That said, the more distance you can put between yourself and an electromagnetic source will usually be better.


Does turning off the power to the modem whenever someone would be trying to rest in the bedroom near the dish mean the EMFs (or whatever causes the illness effects) stop flowing out the back of the dish or whatever is the issue with the area behind the dish?

Yes, if you disconnect the power supply to the modem its electronics can no longer radiate any kind of EMF.

What is the problem that happens behind the dish that seems to affect some people?

There are no "problems" behind a satellite dish - or any kind of parabolic antenna.

But, if the position of the transceiver is maladjusted (a couple of mm is enough) a larger part of the electromagnetic wave will not be reflected from the parabolic surface - and therefore continuing behind the parabolic antenna.

And I think that I am more concerned about the dish than the modem, because when I was at a local Excede dealer, I brought an EMF (simple Osun set to USA, not Europe standards) meter and the EMF at the modem did not seem high. Also performance with an ethernet cable direct from computer into the modem was much better than when there were 2 ethernet cables and one router between modem and computer.

I do not know the Osun EMF meters.

If you want to measure the level of electromagnetic noise from the modem you will need a meter capable of measuring both electric and magnetic fields in ELF frequencies.

If you want to measure the level of microwave radiation from the parabolic antenna you will need a meter capable of measuring microwaves at several gigahertz:

Most likely your connection to the satellite will be either Ka-band or Ku-band.

The Ku-band is the "old" solution to satellite internet. It covers roughly 12GHz to 18GHz.

The "new" evolution in satellite internet is the Ka-band. It covers roughly 26GHz to 40GHz. If choosing a satellite internet solution with Ka-band connectivity remember to ask the dealer about signal degradation in rainy weather (rain fade), as these wavelengths are attenuated considerably though rain or clouds containing high level of water moisture.


//Kim Horsevad

Anonymous
# Posted: 27 Jul 2015 00:02
Reply 


horsevad


The reported ill effects could be due to electromagnetic noise from the transceiver equipment, not the parabolic antenna itself. Only if the parabolic antenna is severely maladjusted / wrongly specified for the specific frequency / installed in a unsuitable location with a large amount of reflections should the signal from the antenna be causing problems for people behind the antenna.

For industrial installations - with much larger transmitting power than a consumer-unit - reflection from structural details in the nearby buildings become a larger problem.

That said, the more distance you can put between yourself and an electromagnetic source will usually be better.



Yes, if you disconnect the power supply to the modem its electronics can no longer radiate any kind of EMF.



So, let me try to summarize my understanding here, and please correct me if I am wrong.

Basically it sounds like a home/consumer type internet satellite system should be pretty safe, whether on house roof (even though within a few meters of a bed) or garage roof, especially if we turn it off when not in use.

If you were making such a decision yourself, and if house roof were feasible in terms of foliage etc. and otherwise much easier than garage in terms of not having to bury cable under concrete etc., would you say the extra safety of greater distance (say 20 meters) to garage and it being uninhabited would make you choose it over the house roof for safety reasons?


But, if the position of the transceiver is maladjusted (a couple of mm is enough) a larger part of the electromagnetic wave will not be reflected from the parabolic surface - and therefore continuing behind the parabolic antenna.


A mere couple mm seems like it would be commonplace to have that happen?


I do not know the Osun EMF meters.

If you want to measure the level of electromagnetic noise from the modem you will need a meter capable of measuring both electric and magnetic fields in ELF frequencies.



I cannot find a link to the exact one I have, but here is a link to a mini version by same company. http://www.amazon.com/Osun-EA0010-E-Alert-Radiation-Frequency/dp/B003JK4TI2

I was on a waiting list for one that would be calibrated to tougher European standards, but it never seems to have emerged as a reality. If the range for what I have is the same as for the linked one then I see that something in the 26GHz to 40GHz range will not register.

Is it your sense that my not finding high EMF reading by the modem is wrong and that they would be dangerously high a meter or so away where I currently think we would often be using the computer, if one had a meter capable of reading that accurately?

I can have a modem set up a few meters away from computer fairly easily if that would be better.

It could also be placed at the garage around 20 meters away, but that would make it much much harder to turn it off just before wanting to use internet and off again as soon as finished.

How dangerous do you think a satellite internet modem is and how far from humans when it is on do you think it should be?



Most likely your connection to the satellite will be either Ka-band or Ku-band.



It is Ka.

Rain no doubt will be a problem since this is a rainy and foggy area, but there are not other options available other than dial-up and the Ka satellite. Dial-up also is affected by weather to some degree since rain tends to put "noise" on the line which can interfere and also knock out dial-up modems.

Anonymous
# Posted: 27 Jul 2015 00:12
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PS I meant that having the modem relatively near point of use inside the house would make it much easier to turn it on and off before and after use than if it were in another building a distance away. Also, the rain and wetness that we have that might interfere with reception would probably also not be good for electronics to be in a building with no heat system where metal things tend to rust and corrode badly unlike in dry climates. Critters would also be more of a problem away from the house.

horsevad
Member
# Posted: 27 Jul 2015 02:07 - Edited by: horsevad
Reply 


If you were making such a decision yourself, and if house roof were feasible in terms of foliage etc. and otherwise much easier than garage in terms of not having to bury cable under concrete etc., would you say the extra safety of greater distance (say 20 meters) to garage and it being uninhabited would make you choose it over the house roof for safety reasons?


The guidelines I personally use are the German Building Biology Guidelines (SBM2008). I have the equipment to verify that all technical installations in my own house are configured in a way that the electromagnetic fields never exceed the SBM2008 guidelines. As such, when I install any kind of transmitting antenna I verify the emission values in a test setting before making decisions about placement and possible mitigation strategies.

If you have a history of adverse reactions to electromagnetic fields I would advise an installation which creates as much distance as possible between your living quarters and any kind of electromagnetic transmitter.

However, an installation were you can disconnect the power supply will of course minimise your exposure to the periods of time where the unit is actively switched on. If you - or your family - never personally have experienced adverse health effects in regards to electromagnetic fields this installation option appears to be a pragmatic solution.

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I cannot find a link to the exact one I have, but here is a link to a mini version by same company. http://www.amazon.com/Osun-EA0010-E-Alert-Radiation-Frequency/dp/B003JK4TI2


This could be worse than having no measurement capacity - especially considering the risk of false negatives.

The description of the detector makes no statements about which level of electromagnetic field intensity it declares "safe". Furthermore there is not any kind of indication that the indicated levels in any way are measured with regards to the specific frequencies measured.

This unit cannot in any way be used for something even resembling meaningful survey or detection of electromagnetic fields.

Something like this:

http://www.amazon.com/Trifield-100XE-EMF-Meter/dp/B00050WQ1G/ref=pd_sim_sbs_328_1?ie= UTF8&refRID=0WNMWN14EBSKVZWY4M1R

would be my recommendation for a simple and easy to use detector capable of measuring both ELF and microwaves.

(However, please be aware that you need a specialist instrument (or a homebuilt unit) to measure the microwave radiation in Ka-band)

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How dangerous do you think a satellite internet modem is and how far from humans when it is on do you think it should be?

That is impossible to answer without detailed measurements. For people who never has experienced any kind of adverse condition in regards to electromagnetic exposure no special concern should be needed; but lacking definite measurements the answer would be a pragmatic: The more distance the better.

//Kim Horsevad

Anonymous
# Posted: 27 Jul 2015 05:24
Reply 


Thank you for all your thoughts, Kim. I am impressed that you are able to do all your transmitting antennas in your house according to the German guidelines. Or are you a professional who installs for others also?

I do have a Trifield but have found it to be less useful, in practice, usually than the Osun. Do you actually have real personal experience with the Trifield? Or are you just linking to it because it sounds like a better device theoretically?

My experience is that the Trifield is basically useless with regard to microwaves.

However, I could go back to the the dealer office with the Trifield. What measurements on the Trifield would lead you to some definite conclusion?

Or is it still going to be the same final vague conclusion that in general the more distance the better?

If anyone else should read these posts and have any other ideas they would be appreciated too.

horsevad
Member
# Posted: 27 Jul 2015 13:32
Reply 


Thank you for all your thoughts, Kim. I am impressed that you are able to do all your transmitting antennas in your house according to the German guidelines. Or are you a professional who installs for others also?

I was. I have probably installed more WiFi-units and Radio Links than most people will see in their entire lifetime. However, my involvement in the IT infrastructure business more or less ended in 2013 when some of my students did a science project where they tested how microwaves from WiFi-units influenced the growth rate of cress (Lepidium sativum).

The danish news media did a story on the experiment:
http://www.dr.dk/Nyheder/Andre_sprog/English/2013/05/17/130946.htm

Since then I have focused on teaching (biology and wilderness survival skills) instead of IT-infrastructure....

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I do have a Trifield but have found it to be less useful, in practice, usually than the Osun. Do you actually have real personal experience with the Trifield? Or are you just linking to it because it sounds like a better device theoretically?

I have a Trifield in my instrument collection. I was often my instrument of choice while I installed IT-Infrastructure solutions. The analog design and the very rapid needle response can be very useful in situations where you are trying to locate a specific source of radiation.

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My experience is that the Trifield is basically useless with regard to microwaves.

It is not the best instrument if you are trying to reach SBM2008 values, as its detection limit is quite high. But the instrument has a very broad frequency response - properly even broader than specified in the documentation, which makes it valuable in regards to identifying sources of radiation. It proved very valuable in locating rouge WiFi-installations.

Any movement of the needle in "microwave setting" indicates a quite high field intensity (the detection limit is about 0.1 W/m2).

I often paired the Trifield with a TES 92 for microwave measurements:
http://www.amazon.com/TES-92-3-axis-ElectroSmog-Radiation-Detector/dp/B00HRSP8R8

This combination is - in my opinion - one of the best instrument combinations available without entering the field of specialist equipment.

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However, I could go back to the the dealer office with the Trifield. What measurements on the Trifield would lead you to some definite conclusion?

If we base our analysis on the german SBM2008 you could take a reading with the trifield in both "Magnetic" and "Electric" setting, and establish the range needed to achieve SBM2008 levels for the ELF-frequencies. For the Trifield SBM2008 levels is practically no needle movement.

From this measurement you would be able to judge whether the same distance would be achievable in your projected installation location.

To establish SBM2008 levels for microwave radiation in the Ka band one would need specialist equipment. However, Ka-band microwaves has a very small penetration ability. Ka-band microwaves will be unable to penetrate a even very thin sheet of aluminium placed between the parabolic antenna and the wall.

-

Or is it still going to be the same final vague conclusion that in general the more distance the better?

Specific and detailed conclusions often requires specific and detailed measurements....


//Kim Horsevad

Henrik
Admin
# Posted: 27 Jul 2015 13:53
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@anonymous & horsevad,

The TES92 is a fine RF meter but if you need RF & ELF rolled into one measuring device, I can recommend the Cornet ED78S. It fits in a pocket and doesn't have an bright orange ball on top like the TES92, so you can make measurements discreetly in public (most people think the Cornet its a clunky phone).
Two favourite features are: time-graph and a pulse-to-sound for RF.

http://www.amazon.com/Cornet-ED78S-Meter-ElectroMagnetic-Detector/dp/B00P67QLA0/

I've compared the Cornet's measurements to my Gigahertz-Solutions HF59B and the Cornet is quite accurate.

Not trying to start a "meter-war", just letting you know, so you have choice.

Anonymous
# Posted: 27 Jul 2015 21:46
Reply 


@Henrik and horsevad[/]

1) since you are both replying on computer you must have some sort of internet access, what are you personally actually using, or Henrik's mother, say, or others with EMF sensitivity to be able to have advantages of internet access, but also to be safe?

2) suppose I go back to the dealer office with both a Trifield (and perhaps also Electrosmog)--what exactly am I looking for? Distance at which the meters register below the German levels to know if/where dish / modem could be put safely? Or???

For TriField: My computer itself (a laptop) registers around 2 -25 on the electric (or, I think, 20v/m-250 v/m-- it jumps around quite a bit) and over 3 milligauss on the magnetic at the parts where hands and wrists go to use it. At the body/head it is less than 1 milligauss, magnetic. And generally around 2 on the electric. These sound already too high (at least where hands are) as compared to the German standard. ????

This is when running on battery and connected to internet--I think it goes higher still if plugged in to an electric outlet.

At the dealer, I can get right up to the modem, but the dish is on their roof and they have very high ceiling so I cannot get anywhere near as close as it might be at our home.


The science experiment with the cress is quite impressive! Makes me think maybe I want to just stick with dial-up service and occasional trips to the library for faster access. That would mean that a lot that is available via internet would not still not be available. I don't know how to weigh that. What are your thoughts?

My family does have electrically sensitive people. This includes my son who both seems to have the most potential to gain from better internet access for his studies (he is a home schooler), but also the most to lose in terms of health issues.

Is it better to deal with mainly ink and paper materials and forgo modern technology? If, Kim, you are teaching, what is your take on that? I assume your schools there do have internet access for the students, probably pretty good access ??? Were changes made after the cress experiment? I mean changes like not having the school use routers, not just that the children on their own decided not to sleep with mobile phones by their beds.


I am feeling ignorant here, could you explain the meaning of the bolded I have probably installed more [b]WiFi-units and Radio Links
than most people will see in their entire lifetime. -- or more particularly is what I am considering categorized as one or the other or both of those? In the cress experiment, the router and mobile phones were considered WiFi units--but is a non Wi-Fi modem either? Is a non-Wi-Fi modem a Radio link? The satellite dish seems like it would be form of Radio Link ???

Anonymous
# Posted: 27 Jul 2015 21:59
Reply 


Sorry about errors with the bolding above.

Further note, not only does the computer seem way too high by the German standards as to electric and magnetic at least at the distance where hands are, but also the corded landline telephone is even worse and is worse even farther away.

Is it really possible to have everything electric or electronic be within the German standards? Or is the American basic wired electric system such that a copper wired landline phone is already too high by German/European standards?

On the TriField the microwave wireless part never seems to register anything being amiss, while for magnetic and electric, all appliances large and small, even phone cords, register as too high. Do you get different results there in Denmark or UK or where ever you all are?

horsevad
Member
# Posted: 27 Jul 2015 23:51 - Edited by: horsevad
Reply 


1) since you are both replying on computer you must have some sort of internet access, what are you personally actually using, or Henrik's mother, say, or others with EMF sensitivity to be able to have advantages of internet access, but also to be safe?


In Denmark most of the country is covered by cabled internet via a digital signal though the telephone line (DSL). In some parts of Denmark (mostly the cities) it is also possible to get internet via fiberoptic cable. Of course there are also a lot of wireless options...

My internet connection is via DSL.

However, I personally use a wireless option for internet when travelling in Sweden and Norway. It is based on the 450MHz (old NMT) band. I have constructed a highly directional antenna (yagi-type) with a gain of about 15dB. With the antenna mounted on the roof of the landrover and a sheet of aluminium between the antenna and the roof I can only measure slight elevated values inside the landrover.

If cabled internet is impossible where you live it is fully possible to install a satellite based internet option without exposing oneself to microwave exposure.

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2) suppose I go back to the dealer office with both a Trifield (and perhaps also Electrosmog)--what exactly am I looking for? Distance at which the meters register below the German levels to know if/where dish / modem could be put safely? Or???

Yes, establish the distance needed to bring the readings down to a comfortable level.

Note that if you make the measurement in the dealers showroom the readings might be influenced by other electronic equipment.

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For TriField: My computer itself (a laptop) registers around 2 -25 on the electric (or, I think, 20v/m-250 v/m-- it jumps around quite a bit) and over 3 milligauss on the magnetic at the parts where hands and wrists go to use it. At the body/head it is less than 1 milligauss, magnetic. And generally around 2 on the electric. These sound already too high (at least where hands are) as compared to the German standard. ????

This is when running on battery and connected to internet--I think it goes higher still if plugged in to an electric outlet.


Computers can be shielded; but it requires some knowledge of their inner components. A simple measure would be to ground the metal chassis of the computer.

Note that the SBM2008 are for sleeping areas. A healthy human being can tolerate a lot of environmental disturbances if the body is well fed and allowed to rest at night.

If you - or you family - actually can feel discomfort when using the computer some sort of mitigation should be considered. If you do not feel any discomfort, and if you only use the computer a small amount of time each day these readings should not be cause for concern.

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At the dealer, I can get right up to the modem, but the dish is on their roof and they have very high ceiling so I cannot get anywhere near as close as it might be at our home.

You would not be able to measure anything at the antenna without specialist equipment. The Ka band is out of range of all the normal instruments used by EHS-people.

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Is it better to deal with mainly ink and paper materials and forgo modern technology? If, Kim, you are teaching, what is your take on that?

I can answer that question quite firmly: Internet access is invaluable.

In many scientific fields the amount of collected knowledge is effectively being doubled every other year. Any textbook on a particular subject is essentially outdated by the time it leaves the printers...

Internet access makes it possible for citizens to research the different aspects of the worlds many problems for themselves - instead of being left in a information-vaccum, where everybody has blind thrust in the authorities.

Jurgen Habermass (a brilliant german philosopher) spoke of emancipation developed through critical reflection, awareness and education as one of the key aspects of developing intellectual maturity. The vast array of knowledge presented on the internet is can be seen as a prerequisite of actually reaching that emancipation, as lack of knowledge and lack of concepts stunt any kind of independent intellectual development.

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I am feeling ignorant here, could you explain the meaning of the bolded I have probably installed more WiFi-units and Radio Links than most people will see in their entire lifetime. -- or more particularly is what I am considering categorized as one or the other or both of those? In the cress experiment, the router and mobile phones were considered WiFi units--but is a non Wi-Fi modem either? Is a non-Wi-Fi modem a Radio link? The satellite dish seems like it would be form of Radio Link ???


... English is not my native language, so maybe "radio links" are called something else in your neighbourhood.

But: Radio links are a technology where the LAN at two different sites are connected through two radio transceivers. Before the advent of fiberoptics in the rural parts of Denmark it was a used quite a lot.

Your projected satellite internet connection is a kind of radio link.

If you disable the WiFi option in the satellite internet modem and run a cable from the modem to your computer no part of the equipment should emit any kind of microwaves - thereby effectively negating any kind of comparison with the cress experiment setup.

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Further note, not only does the computer seem way too high by the German standards as to electric and magnetic at least at the distance where hands are, but also the corded landline telephone is even worse and is worse even farther away.

Remember that the SBM2008 is for sleeping areas. If you do not feel any kind of discomfort from your present use of electronic equipment you should not have significant cause for any kind of concern. The telephone registers high on the magnetic scale due to the magnets in the microphone and loudspeaker. One can convert these to piezoelectric units if the level of magnetic disturbance is causing discomfort.

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Is it really possible to have everything electric or electronic be within the German standards? Or is the American basic wired electric system such that a copper wired landline phone is already too high by German/European standards?

Yes, it is fully possible - but it sometimes requires a rather detailed knowledge of the inner parts of these technologies. Shielding, thorough grounding, balancing of electrical loads, use of special electrical wiring systems, etc are all part of the tricks used.

A simple option for minimising electromagnetic disturbances from a computer is to place the computer in another room an run a set of long cables from the computer to the place of use. An E-ink display is probably the best option for serious EHS in such an installation.

-

On the TriField the microwave wireless part never seems to register anything being amiss, while for magnetic and electric, all appliances large and small, even phone cords, register as too high. Do you get different results there in Denmark or UK or where ever you all are?

No, computers are quite similar. 5 production plants in China makes 95% of the worlds computers, so american computers are not different from european computers.

An electric appliance which you use once in a while does not contribute significantly to the overall dose, even if it registers quite high on the trifield. Avoid exposure to microwaves and try to minimise the level of constant disturbance - especially in the sleeping areas. The more extreme mitigation strategies are normally only needed for serious EHS cases.

//Kim Horsevad

agnes
# Posted: 28 Jul 2015 03:43
Reply 


Hi Kim Horsevad.
I am Agnes, Henrik´s mother.
I work on a computer every day, at work and at home.
All our premises walls and ceilings are pre-painted with Carbon paint (Yshield) and we have netting in front of our windows, we get broadband over a hardwired internet modem.
Wireless gadgets/mobile phones etc are Banned from both our home and work premises.
All our computers/printers etc are hardwired and telephones and internet are over wired landlines.
It works well, ca, 2-3 years ago someone bought the work premises attached to our work unit where they rent out short time space for "Hot-desking" so it is a kind of "office hotel" and we had to secure with more layers of Yshield as they only use Wi-Fi (and so strong that we get electrical shock if we touch the metal of our car after a day in the joint car park)
The only drawback for us now is of course all the expense we have had to go to to secure our health from their Microwave Radiation, and the noise from their tenants phone conversations, coming to stand in front of our unit to get a signal for their mobile(cell) phones as the strength of their landlords Wi-Fi drowns the tenants mobile phone providers signals.

So, Just all make sure that YOU ONLY HAVE WIRED CONNECTIONS!

All the best.
Agnes

horsevad
Member
# Posted: 28 Jul 2015 11:37 - Edited by: horsevad
Reply 


Hi Agnes. Nice to meet you.

"(and so strong that we get electrical shock if we touch the metal of our car after a day in the joint car park)"

This is strange. I have noticed that a lot of EHS-persons complains about static electricity shocks.

The human body contains a lot of water - between 54% and 76% depending on age, health, sex and weight. Water is dielectric, which means that - although the net charge is neutral - the water molecules has a small negative charge at the oxygen atom and a small positive charge at the hydrogen atoms. This means that the water molecules will orient themselves to any predominant electromagnetic field (through Lorentz-forces).

Furthermore the blood contains about 1% salt, which makes it an even better conductor.

As such the human body can readily function as an receiving antenna for electromagnetic radiation, although some frequencies has a better resonance than others.

Henrik and I made an experiment where we could measure the AC potential on human skin (with reference to ground potential) created by exposure to electromagnetic fields in the ELF-area. The same effect (although probably more difficult to measure) will probably apply for electromagnetic fields in the RF area.

But this does still not explain the static shock, as static charges are DC (or, as the charge is equalised in a short moment as the spark jumps, rather a form of pulsed DC).

A possible explanation could be piezoelectric rectification at the molecular or cellular level:

Biological significance of piezoelectricity in relation to acupuncture, Hatha Yoga, osteopathic medicine and action of air ions.

A predicted Mechanism for Biological Effects of Radio-Frequency Electro-Magnetic Fields: Piezoelectric Rectification

-

"coming to stand in front of our unit to get a signal for their mobile(cell) phones as the strength of their landlords Wi-Fi drowns the tenants mobile phone providers signals."

To saturate a receiver operating on 800/900/1800/2100/2600 Mhz with a signal on 2,4 / 5 GHz one would need a transmitting power several orders of magnitude larger than a unmodified WiFi unit is capable of. If such interference could be measured / documented / otherwise proven the WiFi-unit has been subjected to some serious tampering - in which situation it could be quite important to inform the neighbours about the situation, as the levels required for such saturation is rather close to the levels of microwave radiation encountered in a microwave oven!

//Kim Horsevad

Henrik
Admin
# Posted: 28 Jul 2015 12:27
Reply 


Hi Kim Horsevad,

Correct that the Wi-Fi can't drown out the mobiles. My mom isn't a technician, but she's a machine when it comes to getting people organized into protest.

It is true that next-door office tenants stand out in front of my parents office unit to talk on mobile-phones. Why? Not sure yet. But next time I visit, I'll try and do some measurements with my HF59B to find out why.

Perhaps its a signal issue or perhaps they're just being absolute bastards, since they are quite aware of their neighbours sensitivity to microwaves.

Speaking of water molecules and radiation:
Back when the telecom "3" took the liberty of irradiating my parents in their former home by aiming the main-beam of a UMTS/3G mast straight at the house, we discovered a strange infrasound of approx. 16-20Hz. I recorded it on minidisc. I speculated that the UMTS/3G signal was making the water in the air vibrate. What's your take on that?

In addition to the health effects on the humans in the house (my parents), we saw all sorts of strange effects on plants too. Roses bloomed out of season and the tree most exposed, died.

Here's a drawing of the main-beam and the house:
(note: distance between mast and house = 28m)
Main-beam hitting house
(click image for larger view)

horsevad
Member
# Posted: 28 Jul 2015 21:13
Reply 


Correct that the Wi-Fi can't drown out the mobiles. My mom isn't a technician, but she's a machine when it comes to getting people organized into protest.

If someone had seriously tampered with a WiFi-unit in the neighbouring office such tampering could be the result of someone wanting to hurt your parents.

This was my reason for mentioning the issue. I never doubted the information given.

(BTW, I just remembered a demonstration from a "hacker conference" some years back. Some WiFi units can - if the firmware is radically altered - transmit out-of-band and thereby effectively creating a mobile phone jammer.")

If someone had the intent to do harm and sufficient technical knowledge they might be using such methods. I have read about incidents in US where some people try to harm EHS people (who have opposed antenna construction in the neighbourhood) by transmitting RF through directional antennas towards the EHS-persons house.

-

Back when the telecom "3" took the liberty of irradiating my parents in their former home by aiming the main-beam of a UMTS/3G mast straight at the house, we discovered a strange infrasound of approx. 16-20Hz. I recorded it on minidisc. I speculated that the UMTS/3G signal was making the water in the air vibrate. What's your take on that?

Sounds terrible...

If I remember correctly 16Hz is the resonance frequency for calcium ions in the brain. You must have experienced some serious headaches....

The sound could be electrophonic in nature - created by the ELF subcomponent in the UMTS...

Do you have any kind of information about EIRP / ERP for the antenna?
Alternatively a field intensity measurement and a distance for that measurement...

PS: The shielding project at the location we spoke about earlier is progressing fine. We are nearly back to SBM2008 levels... Big Thank You for your assistance!

//Kim Horsevad

agnes
# Posted: 29 Jul 2015 02:41
Reply 


Thanks Henrik.

Kim:
Last things first:
We do not have any info on the mast at our former home, as the info produced and sent us for the court-case was "edited" (easy really to see as they did daily readings and the ones that were crucial were "unsigned" as opposed to all the others which were signed by the Engineers "On-Watch").

When H3G UK Ltd. ordered a monitoring session from (If I remember right) their, then, supplier of EMF monitor"Veritas" in our house, which we were forced to go along with, the people were there monitoring for over 2 hours, mostly in 2 upstairs rooms, which we used as a living room and TV/Guestroom and which directly faced the mast and were nearest to it.
(Most of the downstairs rooms were used for our company, except for the kitchen) and everyone got truly physically sick just moments after the mast went operational and got turned on.

The Monitoring staff said Nothing about broken equipment when they were in our house or when they finished, but when it came to the report (From H3G) we were told their equipment had been defect and that they had not got any results from these 2 hrs!, so when we asked to see the report, there was nothing, Certainly nothing we could use in court.
I have since noticed that the company do Not Do monitoring for Telecommunications much any more.
Sound fishy to you?, Sure does to me, and always has, remember they (Veritas) were Contracted by H3G. (Now the company pleads "TRUTH"! in all they do, but I think they forgot that in our case they "Compromised" with their Employer, or else H3G doctored their report,) but that remains to be seen.

But it was there, after the mast installation, the electric shocks started if
touching the metal of our car which was parked outside on the road, or touching the Fence which enveloped the property" which was made of Old Fashioned forged cast Iron. (The house was 200 years old, and the fence approx. the same.
I had to put some kind of cloth between my hands and the Gate or Fence when I had to touch it, or else I would get a nasty shock.
Our little Cocker Spaniel dog, whom we got when he was only 8 weeks old in 2002 had used to go through the gaps in the fence onto the retaining wall itself and take a walk on the Ivy hanging down from the retaining wall, suddenly yelped if he touched the iron fencing.
So, my conclusion is that like me he got an electric shock when he touched the metal.

AC or DC makes no difference to me.
Fact is that solid metal near to a mast, Wi-Fi, whatever gives you Bad, and I mean "Bad" jolts if you touch it.

Our Next door neighbours are IT-people, so I would not put your theory past their capabilities.

One of our friends lives just beneath the retaining wall to the parking lot behind our units. (Here we all live on a very steep hillside, higher than Himmelbjerget, so very, very steep, or as they say here, only 3 foot short of being a mountain) and we live near the top, and our offices are even more near the top)
He tells us that getting a signal on his mobile at home is at the best times hard, on occasions impossible.
So, your suggestion of Harassing, hoping to get a "Cheap Unit" I am very conscious of beforehand.

As Henrik is coming over here for a visit in August I will leave to him to do the proper monitoring of radiation.
We only have "Soft monitoring" equipment here.

Henrik sent you a drawing of how the radiation hit us.
Here I include a link to our story: http://www.mast-victims.org/index.php?content=journal&action=view&type=journal&id=3

But you will have to go down to the first page to find a photo of our house.

So, all that is left is now to congratulate you on the project at the location you are working on now is working out fine.
Ha det godt Kim.
Henrik har meget høje tanker om dig.
All the best.
Agnes

Anonymous
# Posted: 30 Jul 2015 21:59
Reply 


Horsevad

Thank you again for all your thoughts and info--you are very knowlegeable and your English is wonderful, I think the main problem is my lack of tech knowledge. I hope this time I will have managed to bold a single part below, not the whole thing:

Your projected satellite internet connection is a kind of radio link.

If you disable the WiFi option in the satellite internet modem and run a cable from the modem to your computer no part of the equipment should emit any kind of microwaves - thereby effectively negating any kind of comparison with the cress experiment setup.


There is not any WiFi option in the satellite internet modem. The modem has only one ethernet port and an ethernet cable can go straight from there to an ethernet port in the computer. To have WiFi requires purchasing a separate router that has WiFi, which I would not be doing.

Now knowing that there is no WiFi in the satellite internet modem do you still think that going back to the dealer to measure with other meters is needed? I was thinking that what I needed to try to get measured was to mainly to try to figure out where the dish could go, and where the modem could go due to the Ka band waves coming into the modem and being converted to digital there--that that would be the wireless source, but you say I cannot measure Ka band waves in any case. The set up would have no WiFi. The only wireless as I understand it would be the down and up from the satellite to/ from the dish and transceiver.

My experience with other modems such as for dial-up is that like telephones and other electronics, they measure high with the TriField right up at them, but that it drops off very quickly with distance.

The (nonWiFi) modem could be located about 4 feet from the computer and its user, which would be perhaps harder from the point of view of outside coaxial cables locations, but probably easy inside. Or it could be around 10 feet away or even in another room--perhaps both easier from the point of view of the coaxial cables, but more of a problem in terms of long ethernet (I guess what I am calling ethernet is what you called the CAT5e cable) cords and how to wind them from modem to computer, not trip on them, etc.



When you wrote that aluminum can block the Ka band wireless, do you mean just something like a sheet of aluminum foil such as one gets on a roll from the grocery store to wrap food in?


I was thinking the cress experiment would be like what would be happening due to the possibility that the dish would be set up just a few mm off (as you had written is all it takes to not be going to the dish properly) and the house being bathed in radio wave radiation that way. Or something like that was what I was thinking.

agnes
# Posted: 31 Jul 2015 01:53
Reply 


Henrik and Kim Horsevad

Please take a look at this news:
http://www.mast-victims.org/index.php?content=news&action=view&type=newsitem&id=6869

Please see: http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=CELEX:32014L0053&from=EN
including Art. 3 & 42!!!
Article 3 Radio equipment shall be constructed so as to ensure: (a) the protection of health and safety of persons and of domestic animals and the protection of property...

Very good news!

I suggest to investigate locally if/when this directive will be implemented in national law.
I see that (art. 40) there'll be a National Authority to monitor the radio's market.
This detail will be part of the National Law.

This is the letter, sent by Georgio Cincirpini to MV:

RE: New EU Directive about mobile devices
I suggest to investigate locally if/when this directive will be implemented in national law.
I see that (art. 40) there'll be a National Authority to monitor the radio's market.
This detail will be part of the National Law.
We should focus on it.
After the approval, locally we must make pressure on this Authority to request a complaint as specified by the Directive.
If we might be able to arrange - in same time - similar local procedure (and to committ all the other local national authorities) , a positive result could be reached.
Giorgio

Comments will be of utmost appreciation.
All the best.
Agnes

horsevad
Member
# Posted: 31 Jul 2015 23:56
Reply 


Now knowing that there is no WiFi in the satellite internet modem do you still think that going back to the dealer to measure with other meters is needed? I was thinking that what I needed to try to get measured was to mainly to try to figure out where the dish could go, and where the modem could go due to the Ka band waves coming into the modem and being converted to digital there--that that would be the wireless source, but you say I cannot measure Ka band waves in any case. The set up would have no WiFi. The only wireless as I understand it would be the down and up from the satellite to/ from the dish and transceiver.


Without knowing the exact details of the antenna, waveguide, and transceiver I cannot calculate any safe distance. In case of doubt - the more distance the better.

I had background levels a couple of meters behind the parabolic antennas I worked with.

-

My experience with other modems such as for dial-up is that like telephones and other electronics, they measure high with the TriField right up at them, but that it drops off very quickly with distance.

Yes the inverse square law works for all electromagnetic radiation; but the magnetic field from a badly balanced electrical cable only drops linear with distance.

-

The (nonWiFi) modem could be located about 4 feet from the computer and its user, which would be perhaps harder from the point of view of outside coaxial cables locations, but probably easy inside. Or it could be around 10 feet away or even in another room--perhaps both easier from the point of view of the coaxial cables, but more of a problem in terms of long ethernet (I guess what I am calling ethernet is what you called the CAT5e cable) cords and how to wind them from modem to computer, not trip on them, etc.


Try to minimise the amount of coax - this will give you a better s/n-ratio. UTP CAT5e is more forgiving, as it is digital transmission TCP/IP with inherent error correction.

-

When you wrote that aluminum can block the Ka band wireless, do you mean just something like a sheet of aluminum foil such as one gets on a roll from the grocery store to wrap food in?

Yes, it can be used. But although the kitchen aluminium foil has a rather high attenuation in itself it is rather difficult to achieve a tight connection between the different lengths. Larger sheets are preferred, but it does not need to be thicker.

Be aware that any discontinuities in the surface of the shielding material will have a different impedance from the other material, thereby effectively creating an antenna which re-radiates absorbed radiation. This inexpedient effect is usually mitigated by great care in the configuration of the shielding material, and by grounding the sheeting material.

-

I was thinking the cress experiment would be like what would be happening due to the possibility that the dish would be set up just a few mm off (as you had written is all it takes to not be going to the dish properly) and the house being bathed in radio wave radiation that way. Or something like that was what I was thinking.

Great accuracy is always needed when installing satellite equipment. With the right measuring equipment your final adjustments are within a tenth of a milimeter....

//Kim Horsevad

horsevad
Member
# Posted: 1 Aug 2015 00:04 - Edited by: horsevad
Reply 


Henrik and Kim Horsevad

Please take a look at this news:
http://www.mast-victims.org/index.php?content=news&action=view&type=newsitem&id=6869

Please see: http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=CELEX:32014L0053&from=EN
including Art. 3 & 42!!!
Article 3 Radio equipment shall be constructed so as to ensure: (a) the protection of health and safety of persons and of domestic animals and the protection of property...


-

Thank you for the heads-up.

However, I don't think it will have great functional significance, as the words "safe" in a governmental context regarding RF-EMF usually are to be interpreted against ICNIRPs irrelevant "reference values". In many countries - including Denmark - these reference values are used as a defining basis for the interpretation of the word "safe".

... Sorry to be the advocatus diaboli, but as long as the ICNIRP values are used as guidelines by by national health authorities it represent a significant threat to the future of humanity.

//Kim Horsevad

Anonymous
# Posted: 6 Aug 2015 08:27
Reply 


probably the wrong place for this, but...some very nice and knowledgeable people on here so...

new 4g equipment (i think) has recently been installed outswide our house on the telephone wire. there is fibre optic cable but also emf coming out of black boxes (through wich the cable also runs) about 30 m apart at about 2-300 microwatt/m2. i am assuming it is wifi. pretty sure it is 5.8ghz. is this wimax? the whole town has it running above the streets on tel wires up to 1.0 v/m. this is at big intersections.

this stuff is extremely penetrative. i am pretty much unable to leave my house.

horsevad
Member
# Posted: 6 Aug 2015 09:54
Reply 


probably the wrong place for this, but...some very nice and knowledgeable people on here so...

new 4g equipment (i think) has recently been installed outswide our house on the telephone wire. there is fibre optic cable but also emf coming out of black boxes (through wich the cable also runs) about 30 m apart at about 2-300 microwatt/m2. i am assuming it is wifi. pretty sure it is 5.8ghz. is this wimax? the whole town has it running above the streets on tel wires up to 1.0 v/m. this is at big intersections.

this stuff is extremely penetrative. i am pretty much unable to leave my house.


-

You will probably be well advised to start a new thread about this specific problem; as the system of focusing on one specific problem in a specific thread makes it easier for others to search for information.

If you need help in identifying specific sources of radiation we will need as many technical details about the problem as possible.

Could you post a photo of the "black boxes"? Be sure to include a photo of the antennas, as this will tell a lot about the equipment.

//Kim Horsevad

Tarot Mal
# Posted: 20 Sep 2015 10:38
Reply 


OMgoodness - I have all these symptoms, I have had smart meter removed - changed wireless phones corded - NEVER in did I think to t
link them to the satellite dish I had installed a few years ago. It is a TV dish but guess it can still cause the issues?

rosa
# Posted: 5 Nov 2015 08:31
Reply 


4 november 2015
I live between a satellite dish house and a street power pole with high tension .I have same symptoms ,making me ill.
I purchased the strata unit 7 years ago and the trouble started 1 year after I came to the house. try to send the photos

Henrik
Admin
# Posted: 5 Nov 2015 13:10
Reply 


rosa,

Email the photos to: webmaster {-at-} mast-victims.org and I'll attach the photos to your post above (replace "{-at-}" with @ in the email address).

Reason: for security reasons (and to avoid spam, mainly) we don't allow uploading of pictures to the forum.

Nnn
# Posted: 13 Dec 2015 20:27
Reply 


If you want yet more evidence of emfs causing health problems I will tell you of one.
My friend's son was given a mobile phone by a kind relative because 'as a teenager' he needed one. That was back in May. Ever since the family have become dysfunctional. The mother gets continually cross with the son, shouting about homework, times spend out, school friends etc. to the point of psychosis.

Unfortunately I get a phone call every time there is a problem to deal with it and I have made suggestions about possible solutions one being to reduce the use of the mobile - do you think they will listen?
They spoil my day every time they ring.

Ano
# Posted: 31 Jan 2016 16:53
Reply 


I understand that myself... I feel like I turn into everything I look at. I find comfort in looking at trees...I feel. Yes of swaying as they do. In watching tv....I feel EVERYTHING on the tv as though I am the person on tv

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