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tom1
Member
# Posted: 30 Jul 2007 00:39
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Henrik,

As you suggested I've begun a thread on your site (though I'm a bit unsure of what forum). Perhaps when mine is up and running you'll return the favor :-)

For anybody else, I hope that I'm a sympathetic skeptic. I'm relatively new to the whole EMF issue but am reading up on it about as hard as work (and my girlfriends patience) permits.

I've got a bunch of questions, but I'll try and ask them one at a time so that things don't get too confusing. Formost in my mind at the moment is, is there any evidence that there IS a conspiracy involving mobile phone companies (or whoever flogging EMF based products) to either supress evidence or manufacture it?

The reason I ask is that there seems to be an assumption in interpreting negative trials, or HPA, or WHO statements that that is the case. I wonder whether that is because you guys have your symptoms and therefore 'know' (apologies for the quotes) that EMF causes them, hence there must be a conspiracy, or whether there is more to it? What I'm hoping for is a Watergate tapes type smoking gun, a tabacco lobby style memo's.

Tom

Henrik
Admin
# Posted: 30 Jul 2007 12:34
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Hi tom1,

Nice to have you here :-)

Is there a smoking gun? ..good question!
I must admit that I don't think there a is "chalked-up body on a pavement and a business card next to it" kind of evidence.
As in all good mysteries there are a number of controversial figures doing conflicting things along the way. I'll do my best to illustrate their strange actions.

The man at the centre of it all is Dr. Michael Repacholi. Repacholi ran the WHO EMF project for 11 years. Before the WHO he was an expert witness for the power & utilities industries in court cases against cancer victims living under powerlines and so on. Now after leaving the WHO, Repacholi is an industry consultant again but this time also for the wireless industry.
I'll go into more detail when I have more time.

Regarding Repacholi, you can start by looking at the articles at http://www.microwavenews.com (visible from the front page) and Andrew Marino's "S.O.B's @ W.H.O" piece here:
http://www.ortho.lsuhsc.edu/Faculty/Marino/Comments/SOBs.html
Marino is a student of Robert O. Becker, author of "The Body Electric" and 2 times Nobel prize nominee.

There are some oddities regarding the famous provocation studies that I'll go into aswell... more later :-)

/Henrik

tom1
Member
# Posted: 30 Jul 2007 13:18
Reply 


Henrik,

I'll add your Repacholi stuff to my reading list.

He seems like a new kid on the block though in so far as EMF/health goes.

Tom

tom1
Member
# Posted: 31 Jul 2007 12:00
Reply 


So much to read... I'm churning my way through Brodeur at the moment, after him Becker, after him Marino?

By the way, did any of the cancer victims win any of the court cases? It might be interesting to dig out the transcripts either way?

tom1
Member
# Posted: 31 Jul 2007 17:24
Reply 


Henrick,

It's unbelievable the number of studies, papers and reports on this. How in heck do you trawl through it all? I'm mid-way through 'Currents Of Death' at the moment and will read the original Nancy Wertheimer paper on the train home, but the whole field is awash contradictory statements and results.

I read the http://www.microwavenews.com stuff. It kind of feels like the sort of thing that confirms your view if you see a conspiracy and doesn't necessarily mean anything if you don't. So many facts in isolation here. It's like trying to navigate through a forest using a magnifying glass.

To meaningfully respond to any of this is clearly going to take me several weeks of reading. At the moment I'm looking to Brodeur for an overview of the anti-EMF case. Is that vaguely appropriate?

Tom

tom1
Member
# Posted: 31 Jul 2007 17:42
Reply 


The Marino guy you mention goes way back to the EMF debate in the late 70's. He's one of the dozen or so people originally responsible for starting the anti-EMF (movement?) isn't he?

Henrik
Admin
# Posted: 31 Jul 2007 17:44
Reply 


hi tom1,

I've been looking into this for six years now, and yes, there's tons of stuff.
I'm curious, why do you want to read all this ?
Are you researching for a book, a movie script ? :-)

Never heard of "Currents Of Death" though...
If you want to get into Robert O. Becker then his follow-up book to "Body Electric" called "Cross Currents" is good and you don't have to read about little salamanders getting sliced and diced for science.

/Henrik

tom1
Member
# Posted: 31 Jul 2007 17:54
Reply 


Henrick,

One of the things that bothers me about the idea of a conspiracy is the number of people, agencies and countries involved. Any thoughts? You've been at this longer than me, who do you reckon is involved - the WHO and the US military go without saying I guess?

Tom

tom2
# Posted: 1 Aug 2007 00:16
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I don't believe in any conspiracy, just businesses trying to make a fast buck and people generally disbelieving things until they see it with their own eyes. Simple as that.

tom1
Member
# Posted: 1 Aug 2007 12:04
Reply 


For sure, there is clearly a position that some of it is conspiracy, some of it incompetence and some of it lazyness. It isn't necessary to suppose that there are meetings going on in darkened smoke filled rooms attended by the US navy, and the CEO's of the power companies, the telecommunications companies and the wifi companies.

At the same time, no smoking gun after all this time is odd. There were vested interests in tabacco, but it all came out.

By the way, do you folks accept that it is always going to be impossible to show definitively that there are no significant health effects caused by long term exposure to weak EMF, even if that is in fact the case? One of the odd things about reading Brodeur is that he doesn't seem to accept this.

tom1
Member
# Posted: 1 Aug 2007 19:57
Reply 


By the way, is there a small problem with spam on this site?

tom1
Member
# Posted: 2 Aug 2007 11:22
Reply 


Finished Brodeur. He's very keen on his cancer clusters isn't he!

tom1
Member
# Posted: 2 Aug 2007 12:58
Reply 


I've ordered a copy of 'The Body Electric'. So far, I've got to say, I remain to be convinced.

Tom

me
# Posted: 2 Aug 2007 13:41
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Yes there's a problem with spam, but the admins do clear it up now and then!

tom1
Member
# Posted: 4 Aug 2007 23:31
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Another evidence based question... How many deaths annually is there evidence for attributable to emf? I had a read of the SAGE report which seemed to indicate that 1-2 deaths due to childhood leukaemia in the UK due to chronic exposure to >0.4 micro Tesla (this being the one condition that there is consistent epidemiological evidence for). If you accept the much weaker evidence for other complaints that rises to 5-25 cases per year for children < 14 caused by >0.4 micro Tesla exposure. Average life expectency for women is 81, assume everybody lives that long that would mean about 0.17 of the population are < 14. Assume that adults are at the same risk as children you get something like 30-150 deaths per year in the UK due to chronic EMF > 0.4 Tesla. (I realize that I'm doing a lot of rounding here, on the whole I'm rounding up).

So, some evidence for 2 deaths, extremely weak evidence for 30-150 deaths.

I would be grateful if anybody could point me in the direction of other estimates, or correct my maths.

Tom

tom1
Member
# Posted: 4 Aug 2007 23:47
Reply 


Doh! Never post after only reading something once. ;-) The 5-25 deaths seems to relate to leukaemia deaths under the Draper hypothesis. I'm even more curious then whether anybody has any estimates on over all deaths.

Henrik
Admin
# Posted: 5 Aug 2007 14:42
Reply 


hi tom1,

sorry about the spam
my hardworking spamBot cleans up 99% of it and the rest has to be removed by hand.
With open boards like this one, there is loads of spam coming in 24/7

I don't have a ready answer for the death-by-emf question.
I'm certain that alot of people have died due to EMF/mobile-phone induced cancers.

I don't expect you to become convinced at all. All this is probably just a complex waste of time.

I'm low on time right now but if you allow me to return in a weeks time then I'll get back to your questions.

/henrik

Anonymous
# Posted: 9 Aug 2007 12:01
Reply 


Henrik,

no problem. I'd like to keep in touch but I'll try not to bombard you with too many questions. The Stewart Report is a good read by the way. I'm still mulling it over.

Tom

Henrik
Admin
# Posted: 16 Aug 2007 22:52
Reply 


Hi tom1,

back again .. tried to get some vacation.

funny thing about the Stewart report. I haven't read it all but I do remember how it was used by the government as "no risk" assurance. And now in 2007 a worried Stewart goes public on Panorama saying that there -is- evidence of f.x. cognitive disturbance by EMF and that schools shouldn't be blanketed with wi-fi.

tom1
Member
# Posted: 20 Aug 2007 13:04
Reply 


Henrik,

I need to reread the report in the light of my reading since, but I don't think anything that Stewart said on Panorama was 'new' in the context of his report. Another point is that any one sentence summing up of a 100+ page report on a complex issue with inconsistent evidence is going to contradict at least some sections of the report.

I've just gotten through 'The Body Electric' and 'Cross Currents'. Any thoughts on them?

I'll post more later.

Tom

tom1
Member
# Posted: 30 Aug 2007 19:16
Reply 


Henrik,

I've now read Nordstrom's 'The Invisible Disease'. It an interesting one. In many ways completely different to Becker and the other stuff I've read. He's still got the same conspiracy angle, but this time he connects electro-hypersensitivity to environmental polution. My impression is that he feels that it is actually a whole bunch of different effects.

I still find the conspiracy angle a big turn off, and I get the feeling that he overstates the case, but it interested the heck out of me. Yet more reading to be done. :-) Probably 'Terminal Shock' next, if I can find some time.

Am I misremembering, or did you mention a reaction from photocopiers? That comes up in the book too.

Tom

tom1
Member
# Posted: 14 Sep 2007 20:36
Reply 


Henrik,

I'm not sure I ever answered your question about why I'm doing all the reading (31st July). I think we all have a fantasy of writing a book, but I certainly have no immediate plans (I'm an IT systems administrator, so it would be a bit of a departure from my day job). I am making lots of notes at the moment (essay writing helps me think), so you may well find me blogging on this in the not too distant future. I'm kind of tinkering with one at the moment, but it's definately not yet for public consumption.

There are two answers to your question though.

1. I became aware of a local anti-WiFi in schools campaign and it annoyed me. I've calmed down again, but that's what triggered my interest. Regardless of the rightness, or wrongness, of the of the whole 'EMF causes cancer/EHS claim', the quality of the argument was terrible. Also, one of the councillors said some technical IT stuff about routers and DHCP that I was pretty sure with wrong. Sometimes ones reasons for doing things can be pretty trivial.

2. I've had an interest in philosophy of mind off and on for at least the past 10 years. Also, I find belief, and the structure of argument extremely interesting. In so far as the New Age aspects of the debate goes, the consciousness stuff is front and centre. For the rest of it, it just interests the heck out of me that intelligent people can, in good faith, be utterly convinced of totally contradictory things. Some of that, I think, comes from using the same terms, eg 'Science', to mean somewhat different things.

If I have any bias it is that culturally I am in the (conventional) science camp rather than the New Age camp. Also, I suppose it's much more interesting looking at a belief if it isn't in fact correct. Given that, I haven't been convinced that EHS is caused by EMF, I'm not going to guarantee not using what I learn here to argue against your position elsewhere. I'm not into nitpicking though and my intention is to understand your position rather than lying in wait for some silly quote to use against you.

Tom

asuris
Member
# Posted: 21 Sep 2007 18:41 - Edited by: asuris
Reply 


Dear Tom,

And what did you make of the Bioinitiative report, and the team of people who wrote it? And the European Environment Agency's endorsement of it? Still too New Age for you?

I'm not going to be drawn into this argument, but i just wanted to make sure you were aware of this report and would be interested to hear your views.

jane

tom1
Member
# Posted: 24 Sep 2007 10:40
Reply 


Hi Asuris,

No question there are some perfectly good scientists who feel there is something worth worrying about going on. Equally, there are some perfectly good ones that say there isn't. It's hard for the layman to know what to do under those circumstances.

I have read the Bioinitiative report, though I confess not in remotely the same detail as I've been reading the Stewart Report. Given that it was written by Cindy Sage, Henry Lai and Olle Johansson though it's conclusions are about as predictable as a WHO report. The question is, whose report to believe? Right now I don't have a clue. My default position though is to trust orthodox science.

If I gave the impression that everybody who believes that EMF causes cancer, or EHS, or whatever is a New Age faith healer fish oil tablet salesman, then I need to be more careful with my typing. That certainly isn't the case. After all, the Stewart Report is pretty clear that there are measurable biological effects from using a mobile phone.

The reason for mentioning New Age belief was that in trying to unpick what people believed I came across a lot of it. The number of references to homoeopathy for example is huge, the HESE's UK director, and formerly the Directory of Scientific Studies at MastSanity, is a reiki healer (I could give quite a few more examples). Maybe that's important, maybe it isn't, but it interested me that so many people in the anti-EMF movement have all of these other 'New Age' beliefs and that there was so little debate on it. If I believed that I could reorganize your energy field to cure disease by some kind of 'natural' electromagnetic means I would have every reason to be deeply concerned about 'unnatural' sources of EMF. In thinking about this issue, I'm trying to find out if it's important or not. Right now, I'm not sure.

I'll try and give the BioInitiative Report a deeper reading and will get back to you. I'd be surprised if there was anything deeply wrong with it, but I'll do my best to pick some holes in it. I'm kind of busy at the moment, so it may take a little while.

Tom

agnes
# Posted: 6 Oct 2007 05:55
Reply 


Hi Tom.
I have just read all your conversations, mostly with my son Henrik, (an IT consultant and IT troubleshooter).
Well, I am a business woman in our own Consultancy/Engineering firm, and neither of us have any experience or knowledge in the "New Age, Alternative technologies" like Reiki or such, but I guess we are not biased against anything, it seems it works for some people.

But one thing I do know from experience, as does Henrik.
Microwave Radiation can cause EHS.
It has caused this in us.
I am dreading the time when the UK phases out conventional lightbulbs, as one of the things that we can not suffer since 6 years ago is flourecent lighting and energy lightbulbs.
We used to have the energy savings bulbs in all our lighting, but have had to scrot the lot, as the effects from them are totally crippling, like being a neighbour to a mobile mast is.
We cannot use mobile phones any more.
We have had to insulate our homes and workplaces against neighbours dect phones and wireless gadgets.
Just going ordinary shopping is now a thing to be dreaded, with wireless tills and card-terminals, and people with mobiles getting instructions for what to buy.
Going to the pub or other places where people congrigate for social connection with other human beings is also a thing we are having to fase out because of the mass of mobile phones microwave radiating all around.

But, I actually started to write because you talk about the conspiracy theory.
Well, you have read the Stewart report!
There are two very interesting paragrahs in the first report.
In the one Stewart says "There is no conclusive evidence of harm"
The next though he starts off by saying "However" and talkes about precaution.
The Government and Industry cought his first paragraph, never mention the "However" one, and this has been used against us ever since.

It is no secret that the Government showels in cash fro the Mobile and Wireless industry.
So, would they be likely to admit to eventual harm?
How long did the Tobacco Industry enjoy the poisition the Wireless Industry now enjoys?
For ca. 30 years after all and sundry knew it could cause real har to peoples health.
And how long did it take them to acknowledge the harm of Asbestos?

Here is where the conspiracy comes in.
There is no danger of them admitting the damage to health, however proven beyond any doubt,as long as it is the great Cash-Cow it is.
Only when a bigger Cash-Cow comes along will they turn against it.

So we have quite a way to go yet.

By the way, with all the stuff you are reading.
Have you ever read the PPG8 = The Governments Planning Policy Guidance - Telecommunications.
It makes for a very interesting reading, especially as it practically removes all peoples Human Rights in one go in favour of the Microwave Radiation Industry.

It is readily available on the net, if you google PPG8 it will jump into your face.
Let me know when you have read it, and we can carry on the discussion.
Best regards.
Agnes Ingvarsdottir.
www.mast-victims.org

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